The Many Sides of the Tobacco Debate
Edward J. Dodson
[A Land-Theory discussion, October 2000]
ED DODSON (4 Oct 2000)
Monday's edition of the Wall Street Journal included a report by
Gordon Fairclough with the revealing title, "Governments Can Be
Addicted to Cigarettes." I have always thought it the height of
hypocrisy that while spending Billions of dollars to treat lung cancer
and heart disease Patients who have destroyed their organs by years of
Cigarette smoking (and millions in public education Campaigns warning
of the dangers of smoking) that Legislators in tobacco growing states
have been able to Retain long-standing subsidies for these farmers.
And then There is the assistance provided to the tobacco companies by
The U.S. Department of Commerce to sell their cancer -- causing
Products in foreign countries. Astoundingly, things (from my
perspective) seem to be getting worse rather than better.
Fairclough reports that the World Health Organization Forecasts that
by 2030 cigarettes will be the leading cause Of premature death around
the globe. Apparently, a large Number of governments around the world
are Keynesian; they know that in the long run we are all dead; in the
short run, there is big money to be had by either taxing cigarettes or
manufacturing them directly.
First, there's the European Union. More than 70% of the Average
retail price goes to governments. In Brazil, it is 65%. Roughly 6% of
all revenue taken in by Germany came from taxes on cigarettes. China
is the world's largest cigarette manufacturer and gets 13% of its
total revenue from tobacco sales and taxes. In Japan, the government
owns two-thirds of the country's largest cigarette maker.
What would more taxes do? I have always thought that heavy Taxes
would simply cause the market to go underground. Smugglers would be
the primary beneficiaries.
So, what do you all think ought to be done, if anything?
BILL BATT (4 Oct 2000)
Bill here; I may have more thoughts on yours in a bit. But Let me
first reply by inserting this column of Daniel Schorr printed in the
Christian Science Monitor On September 22:
Exporting Marlboro Man By Daniel
Schorr
(WASHINGTON)In Chicago last month, 4,500 public-health specialists
held a World Conference on Tobacco and Health, sharing the latest
knowledge on Cigarettes and disease. They cited global statistics
Indicating that tobacco kills someone every 8 seconds, Amounting to
4 million deaths a year - 70 percent of Them in the developing world
- and expected to rise to 10 million in the next 30 years.
In Geneva next month, the 191 members of the World Health
Organization will begin the long process of Negotiating a framework
convention on tobacco control. If this survives the concentrated
attack of the Tobacco industry, it would be the first legally
Binding treaty devoted to health. In Boston last week, The
University of Massachusetts released a study Showing that 12- and
13-year-olds can become addicted Within days of lighting their first
cigarettes.
And yet, in the US House of Representatives last week, an
administration-endorsed bill was passed by an overwhelming 315 to
109, providing $4billion to $6 billion in tax-beak subsidies for
export of products like airplanes and cigarettes.
An amendment rule protected the cigarette subsidy From the few,
like Henry Waxman(D)of California, who Asked why America was engaged
in the "export of death and disease. "Lloyd Doggett(D)of
Texas said President Clinton had told him he favored removing
Tobacco from the export subsidy list, but the Administration did
nothing to make that happen.
You understand, of course, why cigarette exports are So important
to American companies. The campaign Against smoking in many states
has reduced the American market and today more American cigarettes
are Smoked abroad than at home.
Cigarette exports have tripled in recent years. The Marlboro Man is
a live and well in many developing Countries that lack the legal
resources to protect Their populations. President Clinton has
shrugged off The idea of international regulation.
And now, thanks to the House bill, which is expected To pass the
Senate without trouble, American companies Will enjoy about $100
million in tax breaks to help Them peddle cigarettes around the
world. Which will Ensure that America, the leading exporter of arms,
Also remains the leading exporter of tobacco-related illnesses.
Bill again:
The thing to recognize here is that there are many Kinds of taxes,
and increasingly the word tax has Become a term of art. Some students
of public finance Limit the use of the word tax to mean an involuntary
Payment to support the general services of government (i.e. not
earmarked) according to the ability to pay. It is often used to
distinguish it from the benefit Theory which more often is applied to
user fees. Then There are lottery payments, traffic fines, green fees,
None of which in this strictest sense are "taxes" to Some
writers.
In the case of taxes on cigarettes, they could either Be interpreted
as Pigouvian taxes(or more often charges),employed to incorporate
external costs, or sometimes what is called a "sumptuary tax,"
or "sin tax." To what extent Georgists would eliminate all
such revenues in favor of the collection of rent is, I believe, an
open question. I for one would favor keeping some of those other
revenue sources. And using tobacco as a base on which to levy a
Pigouvian charge or asumptuary tax is not to me inconsistent with the
collection of rent.
TONY O'BRIEN (5 Oct 2000)
Bill, in response to Ed's item on the highly unethical way in which
Governments both promote, receive revenue from and punish the use of
tobacco, wrote:
The thing to recognize here is
that there are many Kinds of taxes, and increasingly the word tax
has Become a term of art. Some students of public finance Limit the
use of the word tax to mean an involuntary Payment to support the
general services of government (i.e. not earmarked) according to the
ability to pay. It is often used to distinguish it from the benefit
Theory which more often is applied to user fees. Then There are
lottery payments, traffic fines, green fees, None of which in this
strictest sense are "taxes" to Some writers.
In the case of taxes on cigarettes, they could either Be
interpreted as Pigouvian taxes (or more often charges), employed to
incorporate external costs, or sometimes what is called a "sumptuary
tax," or "sin tax. "To what extent Georgists would
eliminate all such revenues in favor of the collection of rent is, I
believe, an open question. If or one would favor keeping some of
those other revenue sources. And using tobacco as a base on which to
levy a Pigouvian charge or asumptuary tax is not to me inconsistent
with the collection of rent.
Many Georgists both profane and eminent would agree with Bill's point
Of view. I am a bit uneasy about accepting any tax as such, since it
Puts a serious dent in the contention that the collection of Rent will
More than adequately provide for all government requirements. Many of
The supporters of the retention of 'sin taxes' and 'green's taxes Seem
to reckon that such punishment will eventually eradicate the Things
taxed. If that were so, then no one would smoke anymore, since Most
smokers have gotten used to being punished by taxation ever since The
first commercial cigarettes were produced. Some even argue that, given
the general improvement in disposable incomes and the abolition of
taxes in a site rent system; unless punitive taxes on these
potentially harmful products was retained and even increased, alcohol
and other substance abuse would increase.
I would argue the reverse; that such abuse, given the improvement in
The social and work environment and the diminution of 'dog eat dog'
Pressure to earn a dollar, would drop dramatically, if not disappear
altogether.
Even Ronald Banks, in his otherwise admirable and reasoned chapter in
"Losses of Nations", suggested that "health and ecology"
taxes on tobacco, alcohol and petrol, plus import duties on cars to
cover their 'social health costs!'[emphasis added] should be retained".
Am I alone in detecting an element of Puritanism in these views?
Who can say definitely whether this would or would not continue or
increase. All I'd be prepared to conjecture is that their increased
use and abuse would be highly unlikely. In a Geoist society many
existing social and economic maladies such as involuntary poverty and
unemployment, degrading social conditions, stressful work
environments, financial insecurity etc, will be if not eradicated,
then all but. It is these conditions which push many to take to
alcohol abuse and to excessive use of tobacco as a means of escape or
stress relief from what often seems like a bleak spiral of defeat and
despair. I would suggest that removing all taxes from these products,
and simply taking a site rent from the manufacturers and retail
outlets, as with all other enterprises, will be all that need be done.
People will still use these products, and no doubt some will abuse
them, but I would contend that the instances of abuse and the physical
and social damage caused will practically disappear, and that the cost
of treating victims will either be borne by the victims themselves
under their own (by then easily affordable) medical insurance, or by a
state emergency medical system, the cost of which will be relatively
small and will be begrudged by no one in the by then prosperous,
egalitarian society of Geotopia.
DAVID HILLARY (5 Oct 2000)
Taxes on tobacco, gaming and alcohol are regressive extreme tax rates
Seem to becounter-productive resulting in less revenue for the
government.
The external costs of these things are probably quite small, the main
Costs are to the person who uses them and their household. The
exception Occurs where the government picks up the pieces of
personal/household strife. I see the solution to reduce taxation to
substantially lower levels reflecting only the external costs of the
products or activities on society generally, and eliminate government
as a personal financial and health saviour of the masses. I suspect a
rational capitalist ethos can be generated from the reality of risk
and costs in personal behaviour, and the need for personal restraint.
In this ethos, use of these substances may fall somewhat.
HARRY POLLARD (5 Oct 2000)
Tony,
As I've said before, one must be truly dedicated when one is faced
with Fosters.
There is a tendency among us - and certainly among many other groups
-- to Advocate taxation to induce 'good behavior'. Punish 'em for
doing bad -- Reward them for doing good.
In a free society, people must be allowed to go to hell in their own
fashion. It's not the business of the State. On the other hand, I have
no objection to charging people for what they get, or for what they do
to others.
That's why I collect Rent and don't tax land-values. That's why I
would Charge a polluter for the harm he is doing - but wouldn't tax
him.
Ron's well off base with the import tax on cars. As we have
discussed, the Economic efficiency that accompanies the geocracy would
lead to compact Cities and probably the end of most roads within urban
areas. Supplies Would perhaps arrive via underground tunnels, which
would lend themselves To assemblyline delivery, rather than the
trundling of hundreds of trucks And such like.
An import tax on cars seems to me to be part of "whimsical tax
theory". Let's tax that! No, let's tax this, then tax that later.
We are against taxes - all of' em. Perhaps the most significant
attribute Of a tax is that its collection has little or nothing to do
with the Benefits it is intended to provide the payer.
Incidentally, with regard to smog, Georgist Margil Wadley was Chief
Chemist At the Air Quality Management District in Los Angeles. (It was
the Air Pollution Control District, but changing names has a magical
quality to the bureaucracy.)
He did a paper showing that air quality within the cars was a lot
worse Than outside on the freeway. So, maybe the "import tax"
should be used to Reduce automobile internal pollution. Perhaps,
special agents should stop cars, spot check their interior pollution,
impound all cars that did not meet the official standard.
Well, I'm kidding. But, we have too much of this kind of thing going
on in The land of the free, and I'm sure Down Under you are well under
their thumbs.
So, replace taxes with charges - including charging for the "external
Community created values that attach to locations".
CHRIS TOTO (5 Oct 2000)
Tony,
Experimentation is a natural, active and individualistic oriented
form of learning. Nothing wrong with that as long as no permanent
damage is done. Self-generated learning is better than martially rote
driven training. Far More permanent damage is associated with
authoritarian restrictions into Mandatory passive learning modes.
I agree that selfabuse, addictions and over indulgences are symptoms
of "pressure relief valve" behaviours.
It is most important that these behaviours NOT be outright outlawed,
because That excludes any chance of civil justice from mediating
between Participants in contraband markets.
There is a "knowledge problem" with the "externalities"
of selfabuse. It is Unclear that selfabuse would really present a
social burden in a Geoist society. Even now, the cries against smokers
and alcoholics pale against aggregate analysis. Alternative commentary
suggests that most smokers and alcoholics don't live long enough to
present oversized costs to society.
One problem with taxing selfdestructive behaviour is that it
scapegoats These people. These people already have enough problems
with self Victimization and persecutions. Do we really want to make
their burden heavier? Will giving them heavier loads help them trudge
faster along the path of selfdiscovered health, selfaffirming
recovery? I don't think so, I think external burdens will delay the
healing journey.
My limited experience and study of the addiction issue is that the
*stick* approach* externally* applied almost never helps. The only
lasting process of selfreform is the *carrot* approach *internally*
activated and self generated. Individuals must feel drawn to a
positive selfinspired goal; external tollgating or external
punishments never convince a person's internal reality. Mike Gray's
book "DrugCrazy" has a few interesting stories of how
several drug addicts in the Uks more liberal, physician oriented
healthcare system gradually weaned themselves back into normal lives
because they had positive goals, not external punishment. The only
things society can do is to hold these people's hands and encourage
them to act in their objective selfinterest while providing a social
context of justice and nurturing, not condemnations and punishments.
Another problem is that once we cross the line into advancing various
types Of lifestyle punishment controls, where do we stop? Some of my
relatives Like putting ugly plastic pink flamingoes on their lawns.
Should we tax Plastic pink flamingoes?
The third problem with taxing of personal vices reminds me of some
arguments I've encountered with neo-libertarians and conservatives.
They always like to Bring up the "bum and wino" rapp, the
decrepit moral defectives scapegoat argument. They dredge this up when
I support every, I mean *every* person's equal rights to land and land
values including an equal share of a land CD.I say "yes"
because even bums have a right to live, and we have no right to help
bums in selfdestruction. It may be his only form of selfactuating
freedom, selfcontrol in his own judgement.
Everyone has equal rights not only to Land, but also to his own Wage,
his own Fruits of Labor. That's why I wouldn't go out of my way to
support the Introduction or extension of vice taxes. We might tolerate
vice taxes in some Sort of transitionary progression from the present
mire into Geotopia but I Would oppose retaining them on theoretic
grounds.
Besides, tobacco and whiskey have been popular, localist commodity
money Alternatives to corrupt privilege rending monetary monopolists.
Cannabis, opium, and coca could easily perform similar roles.
TODD ALTMAN (5 Oct 2000)
ChrisToto writes:
One problem with taxing self destructive behaviour is
that it scape goats these people.
Another problem is that it violates the most fundamental property
right of all -- the property that each individual has in his own
person. Yet another problem is that the current *war* against
marijuana users (see www.norml.org for details) *began* with the
Marijuana *Tax* Act 1937.
"The function of government
is to protect me from others. It's up to me, thank you, to protect
me from me." -- Peter McWilliams
"It is not the business of
government to make men virtuous or religious, or to preserve the
fool from the consequences of his own folly. Government should be
repressive no further than is necessary to secure liberty by
protecting the equal rights of each from aggression on the part of
others, and the moment governmental prohibitions extend beyond this
line they are in danger of defeating the very ends they are intended
to serve." -- Henry George
"Vices are those acts by
which a man harms himself or his property. Crimes are those acts by
which one man harms the person or property of another. The object
aimed at in the punishment of crimes is to secure, to each and every
man alike, the fullest liberty he possibly can have--consistently
with the equal rights of others--to pursue his own happiness, under
the guidance of his own judgment, and by the use of his own
property. On the other hand, the object aimed at in the punishment
of vices, is to deprive every man of his natural right and liberty
to pursue his own happiness, under the guidance of his own judgment,
and by the use of his own property." -- Lysander Spooner
"Drugs are a tragedy for
addicts. But criminalizing their use converts that tragedy into a
disaster for society, for users and non-users alike. Our experience
with the prohibition of drugs is a replay of our experience with the
prohibition of alcoholic beverages." -- Milton Friedman
BILL BATT (5 Oct 2000)
ChrisToto wrote:
My limited experience and study of the addiction issue is that the
*stick* approach *externally* applied almost never helps. The only
lasting process of self reform is the *carrot* approach *internally*
activated and self generated. Individuals must feel drawn to a
positive self inspired goal; external toll gating or external
punishments never convince a person's internal reality.
Bill here: I think this thought is central to our argument for the
collection of economic rent. Among the principles typically listed of
a sound tax design is neutrality. I'm not talking about revenue
neutrality, of course, but rather the absence of economic distortion.
In several respects our current tax system is a plethora of carrots
and sticks. Hence we get all kinds of economic inefficiencies and
excess burdens.
One, for example, is sprawl development. Simply removing the
distortion imposed by current taxes and collecting rent instead
creates tax neutrality. It is neither a carrot nor a stick. In a sense
the argument is a perfect defense of free markets. In many
presentations I have made to audiences, I start by enumerating the "basic
tax principles"; once these are accepted, we're half way home!
(The other tax principles typically listed in economics texts are
simplicity, efficiency, administrability, equity, sufficiency,
stability, and certainty, not always listed in quite this order or
using these words.)
The problem with current conventional tax design is it is a
collection of carrots and sticks!
ED DODSON (5 Oct 2000)
Chris Toto wrote:
One problem with taxing self destructive behaviour is that it scape
goats these people.
Todd Altman responded:
Another problem is that it violates the most fundamental property
right of all -- the property that each individual has in his own
person. Yet another problem is that the current *war* against
marijuana users (see www.norml.org for details) *began* with the
Marijuana *Tax* Act 1937.
Ed here:
There has been little moral indignation expressed over governments
sanctioning criminal license or committing criminal license in the
pursuit of revenue. If we agree that when we live together as a
society we have some moral obligation (either active, to help; or,
passive, do no harm) toward one another, then one's decision to inject
oneself with poisons on a daily basis requires some societal response.
If our charge is to help, then we ought to do our best to educate
people regarding the dangers and to provide remedial care. If our
charge is do no harm, we certainly cannot subsidize tobacco farming or
the manufacture or export of products that are known carcinogens and
poisons.
Another (in my mind) complication is the relationship of the smoker
to others. This analogy also applies to other types of behavior that
lead to voluntary incompetence. When one knowingly engages in behavior
that will cause disease and reduce our ability to be productive, *and*
one is the parent of children (as the clearest case of responsibility
for the well-being of others), what ought to be the societal response?
TONY O'BRIEN (6 Oct 2000)
Ed wrote:
Another (in my mind) complication is the relationship of the smoker
to others. This analogy also applies to other types of behavior that
lead to voluntary incompetence. When one knowingly engages in
behavior that will cause disease and reduce our ability to be
productive, *and* one is the parent of children (as the clearest
case of responsibility for the well-being of others), what ought to
be the societal response?
I believe firstly, that in a society with a site rent revenue system,
such self harming behaviours will have diminished to insignificance.
Secondly, in relation to the child or dependants of a long time
abuser no longer competent to honour his or her fundamental duties of
care is to defend the victim by removing him or her from such a
situation and attempting to place them in a situation where they will
receive the love and care which is the right of every child.
JEFF SMITH (6 Oct 2000)
On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Bill Batt writes:
- In the case of taxes on cigarettes, they could either be
interpreted as Pigouvian taxes (or more often charges), employed to
incorporate external costs, or sometimes what is called a "sumptuary
tax," or "sin tax." To what extent Georgists would
eliminate all such revenues in favor of the collection of rent is, I
believe, an open question. I for one would favor keeping some of
those other revenue sources. And using tobacco as a base on which to
levy a Pigouvian charge or a sumptuary tax is not to me inconsistent
with the collection of rent.
If the levies go to the general fund or go to treating smokers?
Plus, sin taxes have to be kept low enough to avoid driving sin
underground.
JEFF SMITH (6 October 2000)
On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 20:28:46 -0400 "Edward Dodson"
writes:
When one knowingly engages in behavior that will cause disease and
reduce our ability to be productive, *and* one is the parent of
children (as the clearest case of responsibility for the well-being
of others), what ought to be the societal response?
Man, you are good, Ed. Society does have power. To not use its power
might also be a form of abuse, almost as much as using power too much
or where inappropriate.
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